tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9555343.post803657117964382576..comments2023-08-28T03:21:40.351-07:00Comments on To all the world...: If I had it to do all over againRobert S. Mundayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07377574491812912442noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9555343.post-6930983631574119332014-02-23T17:41:17.551-08:002014-02-23T17:41:17.551-08:00Thank you, Father, for such a complete picture of ...Thank you, Father, for such a complete picture of the recent history of the House. In my years there, it was more like heretics on parade, and in the bottle. You did well, sir. It's a shame you were forced out for upholding the faith once delivered to the saints. <br /><br />Quoting St. Paul to liberals is wasted, though, as everything he wrote is suspect to them. He supported slavery don't you know? No wonder Mrs. Schorl thought he was simply jealous of the woman with a spirit of divination, and drove out that spirit because he couldn't control it himself. Well, it's enough of an excuse to ignore anything he wrote regarding morality. Without that, anything goes. <br /><br />Father John Munson<br />Class of '92The Rev. John Munsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14293311138825358290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9555343.post-4426106514201794692014-02-22T21:20:13.275-08:002014-02-22T21:20:13.275-08:00Good evening Robert,
Thank you for having the cou...Good evening Robert,<br /><br />Thank you for having the courage to go public with this account. As someone who experienced much of what you experienced in the 1980s, 1990s and early 2000s. I can honestly say, looking back, some important things have emerged for me.<br /><br />1. I didn't really appreciate at the time the Contemporary Theology class I took from Dr Steve Smith. I was in an orthodox seminary, in an orthodox parish, in a largely orthodox diocese with an orthodox bishop. I thought studying Sallie McFague, John Macquarrie, Bp Spong was just a nice way to pass the time. How wrong I was and I am now glad I took the time to study them. <br /><br />2. You say about those orthodox believers who have stayed in TEC "Wait," some will say, "I am still in the Episcopal Church and I am orthodox, so I have both." If that is true, then you are part of the remnant that is involved in fighting a holding action (whether you realize it or not). So while your present situation may be safe for the moment, apart from divine intervention, the faith you hold, and the parish or diocese to which you belong (if they are still orthodox) will be lost in the next generation, if not in your lifetime." <br /><br />If this were only so. My experience with the so-called "Pittsburgh gang of 13", that is, the 13 conservative rectors who stayed in TEC and claimed they were staying to be a witness and to continue the fight against apostasy. Not one of them has publicly stood against anything since we left TEC in 2008. All they do is complain they we destroyed the diocese by leaving it. They were over the moon when Dorsey McConnell was elected bishop of TEC Pittsburgh in early 2012. Yet McConnell has caved to the liberals on SSBs and openly gay ordinations and none of them publicly opposed him on it. <br /><br />It is not a holding action. It's more like go along to get along. Stephen Noll has it right 10 years ago when he wrote, "It's all about Pensions, Property and Preferments. Keep the cadillac CPF pension plan, the property and the cushy job but it comes at a price. "For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" Mark 8:36 <br />Ed Salmon, Jim Stanton, John Howe, Greg Brewer, Ed Little, Dan Martins. It's all the same. You cannot have it both ways. Our Lord's word to the Church at Laodicea cries out! <br />The Rev Canon Dr David Wilsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09878281384587956210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9555343.post-21545618041524325922014-02-22T09:10:46.036-08:002014-02-22T09:10:46.036-08:00^ That is why we are poorer for having lost Dean M...^ That is why we are poorer for having lost Dean Munday and the seminary he formed to make more pastor-scholars like him.Chris Larimerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01770607122746467750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9555343.post-9260518549259945972014-02-22T01:27:01.377-08:002014-02-22T01:27:01.377-08:00Mild Colonial Boy, Esq.,
Maquarrie's book on...Mild Colonial Boy, Esq., <br /><br />Maquarrie's book on the sacraments isn't bad. It is his systematic theology that is problematic. Another book you might try on the Sacraments is "Sacramental Theology" by Herbert Vorgrimler. He is Roman Catholic, but he explains the sacraments very helpfully for both Anglicans and Eastern Orthodox.<br /><br />For a good systematic theology by an Anglican, I prefer Alister McGrath's "Christian Theology: An Introduction," along with the accompanying volume of readings, "The Christian Theology Reader."<br /><br />If you are new to Anglicanism, you might want to check out, The Wiley-Blackwell Companion to the Anglican Communion. It is expensive, so you may want to try borrowing a library copy before you buy it. But it gives a great overview of the Anglican Communion with the various chapters written by very knowledgeable contributors.Robert S. Mundayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07377574491812912442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9555343.post-15752128830143159842014-02-21T23:42:00.971-08:002014-02-21T23:42:00.971-08:00Fr. Munday, I'm a relatively recent convert to...Fr. Munday, I'm a relatively recent convert to Anglicanism from Lutheranism. I happen to have John Macquarie's "Principles of Systematic Theology" and "Guide to the Sacraments" on my bookshelf. I was wondering if I could trouble you for the titles of other theology books that would you recommend as an orthodox Anglican substitute?Mercurius Aulicushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05130901970855873480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9555343.post-84587602226609889732014-02-21T23:05:30.970-08:002014-02-21T23:05:30.970-08:00When I see the recollection of the 2000 GC that &q...When I see the recollection of the 2000 GC that "embarrassed out" some Episcopalians I marvel at the thick hide some of them have. It was over 30 years ago that reading "The Bishop Pike Affair" had exactly that effect on me. I became an Eastern Orthodox layman soon after that, at the same parish Katherine Schori's mother attended. Can it be there are still people who can't see what the Episcopalian religion is?bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14039146105983736459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9555343.post-60550301562661555302014-02-21T23:02:56.524-08:002014-02-21T23:02:56.524-08:00When I see the recollection of the 2000 GC that &q...When I see the recollection of the 2000 GC that "embarrassed out" some Episcopalians I marvel at the thick hide some of them have. It was over 30 years ago that reading "The Bishop Pike Affair" had exactly that effect on me. I became an Eastern Orthodox layman soon after that, at the same parish Katherine Schori's mother attended. Can it be there are still people who can't see what the Episcopalian religion is?bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14039146105983736459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9555343.post-41035701550475648702014-02-21T19:32:17.889-08:002014-02-21T19:32:17.889-08:00This is excellent -- can we use a (slightly) short...This is excellent -- can we use a (slightly) shorter version in Forward in Christ?<br />LSPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08120630078039958644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9555343.post-52407144472586201452014-02-21T17:50:59.956-08:002014-02-21T17:50:59.956-08:00Dean Munday, thanks for posting this. I, and many ...Dean Munday, thanks for posting this. I, and many others, are very grateful for your years of service in the Episcopal seminaries and elsewhere. You have fought the good fight. Fr. Charles Erlandsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07209279424855242524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9555343.post-43354911353884746762014-02-21T15:25:40.317-08:002014-02-21T15:25:40.317-08:00Don, that's a good word. I, too, have seen th...Don, that's a good word. I, too, have seen the damage done by those who left TEC at less than ideal times--and by those who didn't leave when they should have.<br /><br />If you haven't read Thad Barnum's book, Never Silent, I highly recommend it. As Thad makes very clear, the timing of the formation of AMiA was influenced by some dynamics of what was happening internationally. They didn't time it with regard to developments in Colorado, but the effect on the Colorado election was indeed unfortunate. Hosting General Convention (with those awful sexuality task force hearings) in Denver in 2000 also played a big part in the decisions of some in Colorado to head for the exit as quickly as possible.<br /><br />One of my first visits as Dean of Nashotah House was to call on Bp. Jerry Winterrowd. He said to me (this was in 2001), "I have tried to be fair to my conservatives, but they are all leaving, and I can't figure out why." I said, "I can tell you why. It is the embarrassment factor. I was a deputy to GC2000 in Denver and saw how it was being covered in the local media each night. Conservative parishioners in Colorado got embarrassed to go to work the next day and have their co-workers ask, 'Was that YOUR church I saw on television last night?' They left because they were embarrassed right out of the Episcopal Church."<br /><br />But I agree with you: North American Anglicanism is very messy right now, and it may get messier before it gets better. But, with regard to this post, I hope you'll understand how upset I am to see a seminary that I worked hard to make into a place that could be of genuine use to orthodox Anglicans being watered down by a successor who values relationships more highly than truth, and who is misguided in thinking that Nashotah House's only future is in courting TEC bishops, when, in fact, that may prove to be Nashotah House's destruction.<br /><br />My post was not being vengeful, as you said in your earlier comment; I am simply grieving that the current source of most of TEC's problems is being honored by an institution that I prayed would never compromise like this.<br /><br />I am glad that, despite our differing perspectives, you and I are on the same team.Robert S. Mundayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07377574491812912442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9555343.post-30399825808925511092014-02-21T14:35:51.696-08:002014-02-21T14:35:51.696-08:00Robert,
I don't want to be too difficult with...Robert,<br /><br />I don't want to be too difficult with you either...we have shared many of the same views, although from different perspectives, over too many years to fight among ourselves.<br /><br />I was a student at VTS and John Rogers was my advisor when he left. He was dear to me...but I thought his departure undermined others like Fitz Allison and Reg Fuller and Dick Reid at a crucial time in the seminary's life...which as we can now see rendered VTS an enemy of the gospel.<br /><br />In Colorado the AMiA left when Jerry Winterrowd, who was without a theological spine, was at least kept in line by the majority conservative clergy presence put in place by Bill Fry. But upon the AMiA's departure the conservatives were out numbered and Rob O'Neill was elected over Ephraim Radner, and Rob has since destroyed the life of the diocese.<br /><br />So I stand by my statement that the very people to whom you attribute foresight in hindsight were partners in the liberal takeover TEC.<br /><br />I wouldn't invite KJS to a worm crawl to fire the starting gun. In fact I wrote a list of particulars against her that one of my conservative 'friends' passed on to her that precipitated, along with my funding of ACI, her desire to attack me and my parish, with her willing accomplice and lackey Rob O'Neill.<br /><br />Certainly, on the other hand, those who did not depart when they had previously agreed to so, including Bishops Stanton, Lillbridge, Love, Wimberly, Howe and a host of others then undermined our larger witness...with the same lack of courage they continue to display within the HoB by not standing up to Schori.<br /><br />As Conservatives we are our own worst enemy by a sub-dividing and infighting, whereas nothing matters to the free sex TEC crowd, so they all just jump on the self-indulgence band wagon, pure sin, and get along just fine.<br /><br />The church is a mess in all its iterations, and this affair just points to that truth...and we are all in some way or another the guilty party. <br /><br />Repent, all of us is the only thing I know to be the solution. <br /><br /> Donhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848380994211721440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9555343.post-85614953012237142192014-02-21T13:20:35.985-08:002014-02-21T13:20:35.985-08:00Don, I don't want this exchange to mar the res...Don, I don't want this exchange to mar the respect I have had for you, but let me see if I understand the essence of your comment:<br /><br />The Episcopal charismatic renewal was wrong. <br />The AMiA was wrong. <br />Virginia Seminary was right. <br />John Rodgers was wrong (and arrogant too--which will strike most people who have known him as laughable). <br />Trinity School for Ministry was wrong.<br />John Maquarrie was right. <br />I am wrong. <br />Bp. Salmon is right.<br />Katharine Jefferts Schori is a suitable preacher for an orthodox seminary pulpit. <br />Have I left out anything?<br /><br />Now you are a priest in CANA? So apparently it became okay to leave TEC at some point. Would you like to know what Bp. Salmon thinks of CANA? Ask him sometime.Robert S. Mundayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07377574491812912442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9555343.post-40077272820374368502014-02-21T13:10:08.723-08:002014-02-21T13:10:08.723-08:00Mr. Crew . . . a simple laymans answer to your pos...Mr. Crew . . . a simple laymans answer to your post is this . . Jesus was nailed to the cross as the blood sacrifice required for salvation of us sinners. And as Father Munday noted . . HE (Jesus) is the ONLY path to our salvation. It is an amazing thing that God has provided us ANY way to salvation - we need to acknowledge His word. As much as it pains me, I will be obedient to Him and pray for you and for Ms Schori.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16759608148889695435noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9555343.post-30074103645342514482014-02-21T13:08:04.827-08:002014-02-21T13:08:04.827-08:00Mr. Crew . . . a simple laymans answer to your pos...Mr. Crew . . . a simple laymans answer to your post is this . . Jesus was nailed to the cross as the blood sacrifice required for salvation of us sinners. And as Father Munday noted . . HE (Jesus) is the ONLY path to our salvation. It is an amazing thing that God has provided us ANY way to salvation - we need to acknowledge His word. As much as it pains me, I will be obedient to Him and pray for you and for Ms Schori.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16759608148889695435noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9555343.post-88779855167668056872014-02-21T12:43:24.937-08:002014-02-21T12:43:24.937-08:00So brave orthodox faith and action article. The so...So brave orthodox faith and action article. The soul can not have two true masters. These viruses are now spreading to all The House Alumini. .. The existence of Religion and the Purposes of Religion are so different. Karen Anglican in United Statehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09508808921879004856noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9555343.post-88056423444122006942014-02-21T12:34:29.844-08:002014-02-21T12:34:29.844-08:00It has long been the case that the Charismatic ren...It has long been the case that the Charismatic renewal people have had a bit of a hair trigger in judging others and rushing to their own solutions, not watching at all to see how the Spirit is moving over the whole church and not just with their chosen few.<br /><br />As the AMiA has proven, one could question if the Charismatic movement really is of the Holy Spirit given its destructiveness.<br /><br />The AMiA jumped the gun in leaving TEC, basically willing it to become apostate simply by depleting the ranks of the orthodox with their departure, and even some of their leaders voting for KJS election as PB to further force the issue.<br /><br />Virginia seminary was in fine shape when John Rogers, with a certain level of arrogance and no sense of common and councilor life, jumped to Trinity. He rather offended most everyone in the VTS community with his pronouncements <br /><br />Trinity from the get go has had a perspective on John MacQaurie that has simply not been widely accepted or advocated...thus the view expressed in this article is something of a minority opinion.<br /><br />All in all, I think this article bases its authors conclusion on false assumptions, and is more of a self-justifcation than an explanation...not to mention the fruit of his thinking bearing such false and ugly witness against the current Dean...which undermines his thoughts by his plain vengefulness.<br /><br />Donhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848380994211721440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9555343.post-2745928317316465302014-02-21T10:41:15.698-08:002014-02-21T10:41:15.698-08:00Louie, I am glad you commented. Your comment illu...Louie, I am glad you commented. Your comment illustrates something that has perplexed me for a long time, namely that liberals and conservatives can read the Bible and get totally different things out of it. Consequently, I have a hard time finding your comparisons to Jesus to be apt.<br /><br />Yes, Jesus associated with those who were considered to be sinners; and I am not suggesting that Bp. Salmon no longer have any contact with Bp. Jefferts Schori. But Jesus didn't bring in those he considered to be false teachers to give a guest lecture to the disciples. <br /><br />Two passages, one from Jesus and one from Paul, seem relevant:<br /><br />Matthew 7:14-16, “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?"<br /><br />Acts 20:28-30, "Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood. I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them."<br /><br />And, finally, one more from Paul: "I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them" (Romans 16:17).Robert S. Mundayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07377574491812912442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9555343.post-50639211621245983422014-02-21T09:55:57.531-08:002014-02-21T09:55:57.531-08:00Praying for you and for the community of Nashotah ...Praying for you and for the community of Nashotah House. Thanking God for all your work in training up the next generations of leaders in the Church. http://babybluecafe.blogspot.com/2014/02/a-good-day-to-pray.htmlAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17490745238430648958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9555343.post-43880108404642368172014-02-21T09:11:41.416-08:002014-02-21T09:11:41.416-08:00Isn't Bishop Iker behaving just like Jesus? Di...Isn't Bishop Iker behaving just like Jesus? Didn't Jesus always avoid the company of those perceived as sinners? Wasn't he nailed to the cross because he stood his ground for the orthodox Sanhedrin? <br /><br />— Louie Clay (né Louie Crew)LouieCrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14397282343672792365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9555343.post-5984016036936592772014-02-21T09:02:50.012-08:002014-02-21T09:02:50.012-08:00Well said, Well articulated. Lack of orthodoxy in...Well said, Well articulated. Lack of orthodoxy in The Episcopal Church was primarily the reason I left the Episcopal Church and became a member of ACNA in the Diocese of Ft. Worth under Bp. Iker. I appreciate your sharing your feelings at this very sad time for the House.<br />The Rev. Robert G. McBride<br />Nashotah House 1987The Rev. Robert G. McBridehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06634707079006337779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9555343.post-19649464983732054172014-02-21T05:49:41.407-08:002014-02-21T05:49:41.407-08:00You can't say that you didn't try. The tim...You can't say that you didn't try. The time is approaching for the few remaining "orthodox" Episcopalians to scrape the mud from our boots. It will be sad to leave so many naive, under informed, or misled pewsitters behind when in our hearts we feel that if they could just hear the Gospel preached and be taught by a Biblically and theologically well grounded priest that many would be led away from the heresy that infects the Episcopal church today. Undergroundpewsterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10182191422663119484noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9555343.post-52909629522907246362014-02-21T05:41:31.921-08:002014-02-21T05:41:31.921-08:00Hi Fr. Munday, I read your post with great interes...Hi Fr. Munday, I read your post with great interest knowing that you had been Dean at Nashotah. A couple of small things- The Diocese of South Carolina still sends students to the House ( there are a couple of current students from SC) and +Mark Lawrence is still on the Board of Trustees. +KJS' invitation is indeed a sad and troubling decision. I hope that the invitation will be used to further orthodoxy at Nashotah. However, if Nashotah has stepped on the slippery slope to heterodoxy (as you point out when comparing textbooks), the slide may be quicker than we all might think. Very,very sad indeed.Gallettahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07062791988762007882noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9555343.post-58208940645951109542014-02-21T05:10:29.012-08:002014-02-21T05:10:29.012-08:00Robert+,
Well stated as always. Your points 1, 2...Robert+,<br /><br />Well stated as always. Your points 1, 2 & 3 formed the argument which resulting in me leaving ECUSA in 2005.<br /><br />Blessings on your new work,<br /><br />Carl Eyberg+ Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18048863893895777721noreply@blogger.com